黑洞社区

I laugh nervously as Les Bayliss tells me he is a great aficionado of The Sopranos. 鈥淚t鈥檚 very useful in our game,鈥� he quips. Les is one of the most powerful union leaders in the country. Assistant general secretary of Unite, the result of the recent merger of Amicus and the Transport and General Workers Union (T&G), Bayliss is a key figure in what is now one of the UK鈥檚 biggest unions and a major player in the construction industry.

I needn鈥檛 have worried about my dentures being spilled across the floor of Unite鈥檚 offices in London鈥檚 Covent Garden, like the mobster who was unwise enough to come on to Tony Soprano鈥檚 daughter. Les is a very likeable interviewee and a good sport as I and my photographer take up half a day of his incredibly busy schedule.

I鈥檓 here to talk to Les about his new role as chairman of JTL, the building services training provider originally set up by the union and the Electrical Contractors鈥� Association. Bayliss has been on the board of JTL for the past three years, leading the union position following the change of personnel brought about by the election of Derek Simpson as general secretary of the then Amalgamated Engineering and Electrical Union (AEEU).

鈥淚 orginally became director of strategy, then assistant general secretary, leading the negotiations with the MSF union to form Amicus, and also led merger talks with the GPNU print union and Unify, the banking union.鈥�

Bayliss has overall responsibility for the construction sector and led the integration with the T&G. He is also in talks with the United Steelworkers Union, hopefully to form the first ever transnational trade union.

The chairmanship of JTL is something close to Bayliss鈥� heart. 鈥淚鈥檝e had the education brief within the Amicus section of Unite and I鈥檓 very keen on that. I鈥檓 keen to develop the apprenticeship programme and have been pleased with the government鈥檚 commitment to apprenticeships, but not necessarily with the implementation of it.鈥�

He is concerned that not enough employers are taking on apprentices any more. 鈥淭here are plenty of people that want to train within this industry, but no provision to do that. Within JTL, we could place twice the amount of applicants that we do at the moment.鈥�

The fact that the major m&e contractors have, with some notable exceptions, turned their backs on direct labour and apprenticeships in favour of the labour agency route has been well documented in these pages. What is not clear is what JTL and Les鈥� union colleagues can do to alter that course of action.

鈥淛TL needs to think strategically about how we get the message over to major employers and the government, because at the moment, the small to medium-sized enterprise [SME] employers are the ones that are having to carry the load.鈥�

Bayliss is sceptical that the UK can forego training and keep bringing in labour from poorer parts of Europe. 鈥淚 don鈥檛 think you can meet projected workloads through immigrant labour. It鈥檚 unrealistic to believe that could be the case.

鈥淭ake Poland. Investment is expected to grow 20% over the next two to three years. If all we are going to do is go scouring the rest of Europe to places where they are not investing 鈥� Bulgaria or Romania, for example 鈥� I think that is short-sighted.鈥�

Bayliss would instead like to see a return to training rather than poaching. 鈥淲e need to develop a culture where the majors and SMEs accept that there鈥檚 a need to invest in their own people, and if there are shortages, we have an agreed mechanism for top-up labour.鈥�

One way to bring about change is through procurement strategies and contract terms, believes Bayliss. Indeed, the union has had some success in the 2012 Olympics procurement process in ensuring that training and health and safety are included.

鈥淚t will now be up to us, as far as the trade union is concerned, to police that process and to say that JTL can provide that facility for you.鈥�

Bayliss is aware that he is unlikely to turn back the clock to a time before labour agencies, if only because there are workers out there who prefer to work that way rather than be on the books of a contractor.

鈥淚t鈥檚 difficult to have a debate with one person who is directly employed and another who is getting 30% more wages because they are usurping the tax structure. But that person may have similar problems to the person who is directly employed.

鈥淚t鈥檚 up to us to explain what that means for them. We hope to develop a package that will offer medium- to long-term security. There鈥檚 10-15 years of projected growth in construction, and you can build up a decent pension pot in that time.鈥�

JTL is not supportive of a levy. The union position is that employers should accept their responsibility, and we may have to address this issue if they don鈥檛 accept that responsibility

You might be able to get the workers switched on to going back on the books, but can you get employers to offer it to them?

鈥淲e say to the contractors: you need to give people the option. There should be direct employment if they want it, with a training and skills package as part of that, that JTL can assist with.鈥�

JTL鈥檚 support is vital to contractors taking on apprentices. As well as taking care of all the college fees, JTL handles much of the administrative side of the apprenticeship, the logbook, dealing with colleges and so on. Nevertheless, despite the assistance available, many contractors see apprenticeships as a burden. Are apprentice wage rates at the right level?

鈥淲e need a cultural expression of support for training, and apprentices need to be paid appropriately. Employers are getting work in return for paying the wages. Apprentices have to be monitored, but they are an extra pair of hands.鈥�

One way of ensuring more employer engagement would be to see the return of a training levy, but this is not something Bayliss is in favour of.

鈥淛TL is not supportive of a levy. The union position is that employers should accept their responsibility, and we may have to address this issue if they don鈥檛 accept that responsibility.

鈥淚 mentioned procurement strategies and contract compliance, but we need to be finding additional incentives too. I would like to see a position where there are government contracts in place and there is a percentage within that set aside for training and upskilling.鈥�

Many contractors would like to take on older workers, perhaps those transferring from other engineering disciplines when the likes of Rover go down, but find that there is no funding available for adult trainees. Is there too much emphasis placed on young people?

鈥淲e need a flexible approach. As long as it is not seen as a way of undermining the apprentice programme, as long as it is a balanced position, we would be in favour of that and so would the union.鈥�

I don鈥檛 want to put the dentalwork at risk, but I have to ask about whether the industry should be looking at NVQ Levels 2, 3 and 4 and future managers, rather than concentrating on Level 3 electricians.

鈥淭here鈥檚 nothing wrong with progressing to a project manager and there are packages available, although we do need to be more creative. There鈥檚 not a lot of funding around for it 鈥� that is something we must address. But if you are asking me whether Level 2 should be the baseline, the answer鈥檚 no.鈥�

JTL has gone from an electrical apprentice training provider to one that embraces plumbing and mechanical contracting. With an increasingly converged industry, does Bayliss see a future in an m&e apprenticeship?

鈥淚 dare say people will say, 鈥楲et鈥檚 put it all together and do it in three years rather than six.鈥� I think SummitSkills鈥� review is overseeing this anyway, and JTL will be involved in the debate.鈥�

On the organisational side, although ECA and HVCA convergence is at a very early stage, he would welcome 鈥渙ne set of negotiations rather than two, and I look forward to hearing what they鈥檝e got to say. I expect apprenticeships to remain a cornerstone. We need to look at a flexible model that will attract partners.鈥�

Bayliss sees the JTL model as something to be proud of, with a proven track record.

鈥淲e can and should promote it to a wider audience, to employers and to government. Our colleagues at the T&G section of Unite are very interested in JTL and what has been achieved. I want to consolidate that, to play our role in the debate about the future of training of adults and apprentices and to secure JTL鈥檚 position in that environment.鈥�